11 :: Quagmire
How can a person who has chosen to remain abstinent until marriage find a sexually compatible mate?
Since 1998. On WP for 800 days.
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How can a person who has chosen to remain abstinent until marriage find a sexually compatible mate?
Since 1998. On WP for 800 days.
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May 11th, 2008 at 7:51 am EST
Do you really want an answer to that?
Personally, I would say by evaluating kissing styles. If your date doesn’t put effort into a kiss, or doesn’t seem eager to kiss, then why would you expect that person’s behavior to be different in bed? That, and make sure to have a lot of open and honest communication about sex. Also, it helps to recognize what’s most important in a sexual partner: are they willing to have fun? would they respect boundaries? Do they desire to please me as well as be pleased? You can answer those questions probably best outside of the bedroom, anyway.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:57 am EST
One of the biggest lies we are sold as men is the try-it-before-you-buy-it guide to sex and dating. The truth is, and this is from experience, you’ll *know* whether or not you have chemistry without forfeiting your purity. You will feel electricity in the touch when you hold hands and when you kiss. You’ll burn with anticipation and excitement just to spend time together. You’ll know… not right away necessarily, but as you progress in spiritual and emotional intimacy, the physical will play itself out naturally.
This is an issue really close to my heart, so let me be totally clear - sex was designed to be a physical representation of a spiritual intimacy between a man and a woman. If sex were an ends to itself, then the world’s view would hold water, but as it stands it’s total bunk.
Lance - I totally hear you. I’ve been there and agonized over the same thing. This is a struggle every Christian man has. But I’m telling you the truth here - a meaningful relationship in other areas and a willingness to openly communicate the deepest longings of your soul will reveal whether the chemistry is there. Peace, - Matt
May 11th, 2008 at 2:23 pm EST
One shouldn’t look for a “sexually compatible” mate. One should look for a “spiritually compatible” mate, the rest will follow. Read I Corinthians 7 and Proverbs 31 for some guidance.
Buy it, then try it.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:46 pm EST
HP is right. Sexual compatibility — you mean whether the plumbing is properly configured? I suppose you could each get a note from the doctor certifying your gender. This is an American joke, right?
May 12th, 2008 at 3:10 am EST
wow lance, what an interesting question! a question that, to be honest, i never thought of….and not because “i’m a girl”. it just never crossed my mind that i would be “incompatible sexually”. perhaps it is because i am still a virgin and do plan to wait until marriage. by what standard would i deem my husband “sexually incompatible” if i have nothing to compare my husband to. i don’t believe in the try it, then buy it mentality, and to be honest i definitely do not agree with the answer that was left by anonymous.
i’m 28. i have never dated. i have never kissed anyone. and i have never had sex. i desire for my first kiss to be shared with my husband on my wedding day. i truly believe that a kiss is something that is so, so very intimate and personal and i desire to share not just my first kiss, but ALL my kisses with the man that i will spend my life with. i believe that a kiss mean nothing anymore. young and old kiss whomever they want, whenever they want, but i desire for something different…something more. a kiss is something that should be treasured, but we have cheapened it’s worth. it means nothing anymore, and that deeply saddens me! can i tell you how excited i am to be able to share this with the one man whom i have chosen to love and who God has brought into my life? augh!!! soooo excited!
i also strongly disagree about the talking about sex before you are married. i’m not saying don’t talk about it at all. i know many pastors talk about it in their premarital counseling. however, i’m reminded of the verse in song of songs 8:4 where it talks about not awakening love until it is ready. i think this applies to talking about sex….i think you can talk about it before marriage in a safe healthy way, but definitely don’t think it should be a strong focus. i know personally for me that there is great temptation in talking about sex, especially with the man i know i am going to marry. i really believe that kissing does this also…it awakens love and requires no commitment. we share so freely with others things that i believe the Lord designed for one person, and one person only.
lance, i just want to encourage you. 1) there are other’s who are waiting until marriage and are pursuing purity. i know sometimes i question if i’m the only one
cause sometimes it sure seems like it. but i KNOW God is going to honor my obedience, and He will honor your’s as well. 2) i’m encouraged in your honesty and openess. i honestly didn’t know that guys, and in particular Christian guys struggle with this issue. thank you for sharing. i do so very much appreciate your desire to obey and serve the Lord. i pray that the Lord will continue to give you the strength to daily have victory over your flesh and continue in your path of purity.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:58 am EST
I just find it interesting (and sad) that we are encouraged to pursue a healthy intimacy in every other arena … social, spiritual, emotional, interpersonal, etc. But when it comes to sexual intimacy, we’re encouraged to fear, avoid, and condemn it. We’ve effectively relegated one of the most important aspects of relationship to the shadows … and in the process, we’ve bred ignorance, shame, guilt, and terrible life choices.
I’m not buying it. Pun intended.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:08 am EST
lance. i wonder this same thing all the time.
i could go on and on and ON responding to some of the comments, but i’ll just say that ultimately, communication is absolutely KEY… just as it is for all other aspects of our lives.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:56 pm EST
who is encouraging fear, avoidance, and condemnation regarding sexuality??? that isn’t scriptural AT ALL!
May 12th, 2008 at 1:23 pm EST
Of course sexual intimacy is important in a marriage, and you’re right to want to make sure that will be there if you’re committing to being with only one person for the remainder of your life. And I agree that this is a topic too often ignored or deemed unacceptable for discussion, especially among Christian circles, so I thank you for your boldness in bringing it into the light.
That having been said, I do believe that God intends sex only for marriage. I realize that we live in different times and that these are issues which may not have come up in the culture in which the Scriptures were originally written, and I cannot completely justify why I believe what I do regarding this subject. But it’s still what I believe. I think God gives us commands for our own good, and I think this is a prime example. Sex is the ultimate expression of intimacy and oneness, so when those bonds are severed, there is pain, hurt, grief.
So how can you know, then? Well, obviously sexual intimacy is just one part of the relationship, however important a part you see it as. But all the parts - spiritual, emotional, social, physical, etc. - are intertwined. If all the other aspects of the relationship are awesome, how could the sex not be? Granted, I’m making a lot of assumptions here: first, there must obviously be attraction, desire, etc. Also, I’m assuming that you can talk about the subject openly together, though I understand that this would be harder when neither party has “experience” to know what they like, need, expect, etc. Still, I think it comes down to trust: trust that God didn’t give us an impossible task (i.e. finding a suitable partner while maintaining purity), and trust that our partner will be willing to work on that aspect of the relationship if needed, just as any other (because we know that all relationships require effort).
And my last point (I promise): In the beginning of any relationship, everything is exciting. Holding hands, kissing… they affect you in amazing ways during the initial stages of a romance. But the tingling you feel the first time you hold hands, for example, fades over time. Similarly, just because your first experience having sex with a person is good doesn’t mean that it will automatically remain great forever. It could still get monotonous or stale without continuing to invest and explore that aspect of the relationship. So I don’t think that “trying before you buy” will necessarily provide any insight that discussions will not.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:25 pm EST
I’m not talking about scripture, HP. I’m talking about American culture, and specifically the Christian subculture. If you think that it’s not encouraging fear, avoidance, and condemnation about sexuality, then your head’s in the sand.
Careful … you’re bound to get your butt kicked in that position.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:10 pm EST
Well, your generalization about the “Christian subculture” may be accurate in general, but not at my church. I suppose many of the things my pastor says from the pulpit would embarrass many a puritanical-minded Christian, now that I think about it…
If your church’s “subculture” is causing fear, avoidance, and condemnation regarding sexuality then I would seriously consider leaving that church, because they aren’t being Biblical about it. And if they can’t be Biblical about one of the most beautiful gifts God gave to human beings, then I would question if they are being Biblical in other areas. In the context of marriage, there is nothing to be embarrassed about when talking about sex. Discreet and appropriate, especially when children are in the room, sure. But embarrassed or fear-mongering???
Jenn, your statement that “I realize that we live in different times and that these are issues which may not have come up in the culture in which the Scriptures were originally written” bothers me. These issues did come up in the culture of Biblical times. Corinth was a very sinful pornographic “sailor town” with a temple full of prostitutes at the top of the hill and an “anything goes” mentality. That is why Paul had to address these very issues to the believers in that city. I get perturbed when I hear people say that today’s culture is so different than “back then” that Scriptures don’t apply. Answers to all of today’s relevant cultural issues can be found in Scripture, its why God gave us His Word as a roadmap to life. It may take some studying to find what you’re looking for, but God’s Word is as relevant today as it was thousands of years ago.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:19 pm EST
HP - Absolutely! I completely agree that the Scripture is still relevant and applicable. What I was referring to was simply the idea of “dating” as it exists in our culture today. The whole process by which we find our mates is different today than in times past, and even different here than in other places in the world. So we have some things to figure out in that regard.
May 12th, 2008 at 5:14 pm EST
HP, you grew up in the same church, school, and family as me … I’m sure you’ve read many of the same books, heard the same music, and subscribed to many of the same doctrines that I’ve subscribed to throughout my life. And I’m bewildered by the fact that you say you don’t see what I’m talking about. In fact, I don’t believe it … maybe you simply got married before you really had to confront this ugly reality.
And, in my opinion, this really has nothing to do with a specific church or pastor … yet I find it interesting that you suggest that I leave (or “divorce”) a church if it deals with this issue improperly (which mine, incidentally, doesn’t). Hmm … sounds like the fruit of avoidance, fear, and condemnation to me!
May 12th, 2008 at 5:58 pm EST
True, I grew up in the same church as you did. Notice though, that I no longer go there. Though this isn’t solely due to this issue, the handling of this issue is symptomatic of much deeper issues there. The particulars aren’t something that would be appropriate to post on a public blog though.
I do see much of the church being as you describe it. ie, I can’t imagine the immature snickers that would have resulted during a “straight up” discussion of this from the pulpit growing up. And I agree there are likely many other churches out there that are still like that. My head isn’t in the sand regarding this “ugly reality.” And I’m not so sure a church with this problem should be left simply because of this. I do suggest that anybody going to a church that can’t handle discussion of this topic (appropriately) should examine all aspects of the church carefully to see if this is symptomatic of other deeper issues.
I’m not getting how my “moving on” is the fruit of being exposed to avoidance, fear, and condemnation (as I was growing up). Unless you mean this is a positive “fruit”?
May 13th, 2008 at 2:54 am EST
Lance,
You are so right about most Christian churches and the Christian ghetto (um, I mean, subculture).
I can’t tell you the number of marriages that have struggled in large part because a would-be husband or wife was told, “no”, “don’t think those thoughts”, “don’t touch that”‘, “don’t talk about that”, “if it is from there it is a sin”, “look but don’t touch”, “don’t ask that question” and any number of other things - before marriage. Then, wallah, marriage ceremony. now they have to change gears and try to fully enjoy the body god gave to them and their spouse. That is one crazy transition.
I completely agree, the church in general and Christian parents specifically are doing a pretty poor job at helping their kids develop a healthy theology of sex and healthy sexual self-images.
I want to comment on the basic question of sexual compatibility. It is addressed to all, not you specifically. I know you well enough to know that your love for the Lord is vital and strong ….and you like to think through tough issues regardless of where you may personally be on an issue. Here goes…
My only point to say in reference to your question is that we have to resist reductionism. There is a tendency to reduce any complex thing (sexuality is certaily complex) into its most obvious or shiny component and thereby missing key, meaningfu elements of a thing, if not the whole thing, itself.
There is a lot of sexual compatability that can be well-known long before body parts are joined. I submit, that the a long, slow relationship pre-marriage is the perfect place to discover sexual compatibility - just not the full physical side of it. A good hug, deeply looking into her eyes, meaninful talk, rebounding quickly after conflict, making time for eachother’s non-sexual needs, all the levels of intimacy that can happen when there is honest, vulnerable conversation, traveling together, laughing at each other - all these things and so much more will tell you whether you are compatible or not.
Honestly, there is no such thing as sexual compatibility without whole relationship compatibilty. You can’t reduce great sex into shudders and muscle spasms. Great sexual compatibility takes the whole package - most of which can be known long before body parts combine. Sex as displayed on the internet or that is the product of a friends-with-benefits arrangement is a classic bait-and-switch. You are “promised the moon” and instead you simply get a lot of muscle spasms … and an empty heart. That is not great sex…not even once.
As to the test run before a ring on the finger….well, it depends on your theology. If you believe the best sex is only experienced in an exclusive and permanent covenant between one man and one women (a wholistic, not reductionistic,view) then it is a no go. But, if you wait for a ring and promises to each other before God and the community of faith, that does not mean that you will have insufficient information to make an informed decision as to whether you are sexually compatible or not. It simply means that you will not know all of the compatibility you will have. You may not know the final piece of physical compatibility.
(A side note….99% of male and females are 100% physically compatible with anyone from the opposite sex. It is just pure mechanics. God designed a whole range of sizes and shapes to fit just fine. What we are really talking about is not “compatibility” but preference. We are trying to gaurantee that we get “all” that we have heard and believed that sex should be. We rarely ask if our view of what sex should be has been tainted or defiled. We are trying to reduce any risk that we might be disappointed sexually. News flash - no test drive can reveal all the challenges that may arise or really prevent you from choosing the wrong one. Any major defect will already be known and a test drive would not be necessary - if she is selfish about other things, she will be selfish with her body - it will be up to you to see and interpret the signs. This is why God reseves sex for permanant/exclusive relationships. We would keep test driving cars and turning them back in at every rattle - and rattles are bound to happen).
Don’t let that concern you too much. You won’t have all the information on any area of compatibility before your marriage. Honestly, that is part of the purpose….you will discover who you are becoming in Him as you walk out these unknowns in a committed, exclusive and permanent covenant.
I suggest the book “Sacred Marriage” by Gary Thomas. It really help me not reduce sex or marrige to the parts I liked most.
humbly submitted as fodder for thought between friends,
ben
May 13th, 2008 at 8:06 am EST
Good post, Ben.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:01 pm EST
Yeah, I’m not really sure what sexual compatibility is…is it the fact that you can both enjoy sex? You can have kids?
And wouldn’t sexual compatibility have come simply from the thought that someone else could do it better or worse than your match?
Because…if sex is only within marriage (and from what I’ve heard and seen on TV, it always is. If people have sex at all. I love Lucy, thank you.) wouldn’t sexual compatibility before marriage be irrelevant? After marriage, it becomes something to explore, sure, but before, talking about Kama Sutra will probably only bring problems to a relationship. Or yoga classes.
Practically speaking, for my own life specific, when I get married, she’s gonna be sexually comptatible. That’s all there is to it. If not, we aren’t going to be married, we will probably be friends. Because I want sex, I’m not a monk with vows to give up this world and all its pleasures to focus on God alone and make cheese. Even though making cheese is great.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:11 pm EST
David, Your Mom makes cheese. And Ben, thanks for taking the time to read and respond, I really appreciate the fantastic wisdom and advice. But seriously … 2:54am? Yikes!
As far as compatability goes … I’m not talking at all about the “mechanics” of sex … did you fellas actually think that’s what I meant? No, I’m talking about actual compatibility. Let me put it this way … none of you would argue that spiritual compatibility is not important in a marriage. I need to be able to share the most important thing in my life with my spouse, to live hand-in-hand with the same heart and mindset and to serve the same God wholeheartedly. Emotional and practical (lifestyle) compatibility are similar … it’s important that who I am and who I want to be lines up with her. And I believe that sexual (or physical) compatibility is also extremely important … there are certain people who I just line up with, who have unique God-given traits and special life-developed characteristics that “fit” me. Sure, part of that is preference, like Ben mentions … but I believe that it’s bigger than that. And yeah, Matt … some people (like you, it seems) get lucky and find that chemistry naturally unfolding as the relationship deepens … but I believe that if I sit back and wait for that magic to happen, it’s simply going to open the door for conflict, hurt, pain, guilt, shame, and fear.
Simply put, ignoring sexual compatibility will produce ignorance.
May 14th, 2008 at 12:55 pm EST
SO, what do you think is the alternative to “sitting back and waiting for the magic to happen?” Do you believe that sexual chemistry really is about luck? If you were/ are in a leadership position within your church, what steps would you take to guide others closer to God’s design?
May 15th, 2008 at 12:36 am EST
This is an interesting blog of yours, Lance. I stumbled upon it when I was googling (”cincinnati chinese church earthquake) for Cincinnati Enquirer’s post about a prayer vigil for the earthquake in China, and I recongized webel.
I love everybody’s comments so far, and I’m sure you’re thinking of a response to Beth’s question.
I’m all about breaking down the question and addressing the presumptions into place, whether or not the presumptions are indeed a “necessary truth.”
First off: “sexual compatibility” implies that Christians could be sexually incompatible. BUT - I ask: on whose ’standards’? Everything that has been mentioned by you, Lance, is mostly on the Christian subculture that “sex” is a “taboo” and as a result it leaves people ignorant. You say “ignoring sexual compatibility will produce ignorance” but I’ll just simply counter with a more proper statement that: “Ignorance COULD produce sexual INcompatibility.” In other words, the question shouldn’t ask about how to discover sexual compatibility, but rather “What is a God-fearing, God-loving, holy approach towards sex and sexual intimacy (or ‘compatibility’) within marriage?” And then “Who is supposed to teach it?”
So the problem isn’t “discovering sexual compatibility” - it’s “sex education.” I don’t have the source, but one statistic said that MOST teenagers wish that PARENTS were the ones who taught them about sex… not schools, not churches, not TV or media. But of course the question is - to what extent, to what detail… for what purpose, and when? Honestly - my stance is “sooner the better” b/c kids NOWADAYS are already learning a very “general idea” but a CLEAR idea of what sex is via TV/Movies. But what they DON’T know is truth in consequences (not just that it’s a sin, but the personal self-value-worth-struggle, the sense of shame, etc.)
Secondly: If I could think of a “theme verse” (I haven’t made one yet… just saying if I was forced to make one) that I would give to my youth it would be Pauls writing in Romans 16:19: “… I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.” There is a great paradox between WISE of GOOD and INNOCENT of EVIL, that exists simply because the Christian subculture has misused the word “innocent.” People think “innocent” means never knowing. But in actuality, in the court of law - INNOCENT really means NEVER COMMITTING or NEVER EXPERIENCING… NOT on never knowing. Based upon this verse I threw out a question to my youth and to the adults of the English Congregation: “How does anybody ever fully know why committing/experiencing sex is BAD before marriage?” The subsequent question was asking the youth: “Do you fully know why?” Then asking the adults: “Do you fully know why?”
What I concluded was this observation - there are only 2 ways that Christians will ever fully know why God sanctified sex to be only within the context of marriage:
(1) That remained pure and abstinent (but wise) towards sex and intimacy and experienced the FULL glory of it in the wedding/marriage-bed. (Thus Youth ideally will NEVER know until they are there)
OR
(2) That they didn’t remain pure and abstinent, they felt the wretchedness of shame and guilt… they suffer through the loneliness of low-self-value and worth…
But I praise God for his GRACE and MERCY that for #1 - Christians can experience this; and for #2 - Christians can somehow experience #1 despite #2, but with a deep sense of sorrow and regret.
Now - what does all of this have to do with “sexual compatibility”?
The topic that should be addressed is not sexual compatibility, but rather how does sexual INcompatibility ever occur. I’ve covered:
(1) It occurs BECAUSE of ignorance, and naivete - lack of proper sex-education that leads to FALSE sense of shame and guilt.
The other reason why sexual INcompatibility could ever occur is
(2) Some sort of sexual sin that has harmed one either by premarital sex and/or sexual abuse. In this instance - God’s HEALING is either still in process or… usually Healing has never occurred, b/c the sin has never been fully addressed. Thus, when approaching the marriage/wedding-bed it is a frightful and awful act, instead of a holy and pleasing act glorifying God.
Now… assuming that everything has gone well (whether it’s God’s grace of obedient/pure WISE life… or God’s grace of healing and redemption)… and you’re at the wedding-bed - what do you do?
… just like Spiritual “Compatibility” (God *not used in vain* - I hate this word)… just like Spiritual INTIMACY and just like Emotional Intimacy and even Mental Intimacy are all important to a healthy relationship - so is Physical Intimacy (which includes SEX). BUT this is where we must address the question: Is sexual intimacy a factor that NEEDS to be fully defined in order for there to exist a God-glorifying relationship?
If you say YES - then honestly… the only way you can go about it is by having sex before marriage (but as we all know… that’s a big “no-no”). The reason why I say it this way is because… in ALL relationships as we continue to BUILD UP and GROW … MORE intimate with each other (spiritually, emotionally, mentally… and yes even physically-non-sexually) - it takes TIME and requires a LOT of God, a LOT of Jesus, a LOT of Holy Spirit - b/c only Jesus can bring sinners together in intimacy.
And since sexual intimacy will NEVER occur before marriage (I say ‘never’ b/c … it’s all false-intimacy), you won’t ever have your sexual “compatibility” until you are already married and you approach that next-step of intimacy because of God’s guidance of 1-flesh within the bounds of marriage.
Lastly: you wrote “I believe that if I sit back and wait for that magic to happen…” you’re dang right you don’t sit back and wait for that magic, you fool. You grow deeper with Jesus. Cuz honestly… when I’m approaching my wedding-bed, I’m gonna hold my wife’s hands and pray, “Oh Father, teach me and _____ in how to enjoy each other fully as you designed us to enjoy this … for us and us alone…” … and I know and wait expectantly that the sexual intimacy will GROW and will HAPPEN b/c God is good. … but even if it doesn’t for whatever reason (whether disease or accident… and perhaps even b/c of unaddressed sin - but this can be dealt with) - I love God, and I will love my wife (whenever God blesses me with her), b/c God loves us - and this will never change.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:17 am EST
Eric, man … you totally lost me there. Don’t worry, I’ll get it after a few more reads, but for now I’m just going to answer Beth then go to bed. But glad to see you here, bro.
Now we’re finally back to my original question (go ahead, scroll up and re-read it). It’s funny how that happens, isn’t it? One thing’s certain, methinks … conversations like this are absolutely vital.
Nope. Never said that … though I did say that some people seem to be more fortunate than others. Just like some people end up with people who happen to have similar financial lifestyles (without ever really having planned it or thought about it). Personally, I’m not willing to leave something that important in the hands of the Irish.
Why does this keep coming back to churches? Oh, you peeps … well, I think there’s a very good reason why I’m not a leader in a church. With that being said, I think, once again, that conversations like this need to happen. I also think that broken, messy, beautiful stories need to be told and heard … narratives of abuse, forgiveness, adventure, intrigue, wounds, redemption, freedom, oppression, grace, and life need to be intertwined with regular teachings. Finally, leaders need to listen more than preach, submit their desire for control to His lordship, and honestly … they need to get out more.
For what it’s worth, Beth, I think your husband’s original answer is dy-no-mite.
May 20th, 2008 at 2:47 pm EST
1. It came back to churches because the discussion for most of this did center around church and Christian “subculture” which is pretty much made up of “the church”, right? I think the discussion went there because you brought up what we’re taught about sex being centered on fear, ignorance, etc. I’ve decided now that the better question for you would have been, how/what will you teach your own children someday on this subject? And now that I’ve come to that conclusion, I think I’ll blog about my own answer to that question as soon as possible.
2. Reading your post and the comments around it, as well as a recent book I’ve been really into, I am realizing that this must be a great leap of faith especially for men! I say that because for many women I know, much of “sexual compatibility” is found 90% in the intimacy (emotional, spiritual, snuggling, etc.) which she can mostly experience before marriage, and 10% in the physical when it is combined with the other factors. I’m sure it’s somewhat of a blend for men as well, but let’s face it, the visual and the physical (that ideally aren’t there before marriage in Christian relationships) have to factor in a much higher ratio for guys.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:03 pm EST
If there are any other parents out there reading this blog who are looking for a great way to teach your child about sex, the below book series is EXCELLENT. There are 4 books (the top 4 that come up in the search below) that you read with your child as they get older that get progressively more detailed at age appropriate levels. It makes a task that may seem awkward and overwhelming to many VERY do-able and positive.
http://tinyurl.com/5ddw2n